Columbia (not OT)

What I hear is so ultra-tragic. Please cry a tear in the name of mankind, science, futurism, machines and all that. Space exploration and graphics programming triggers the same fashination-neurons in my head, they are both top entrys on my list of meaningful things in life. This his is so sad.
:frowning:

Glasses up for our fallen brothers and sisters. Let there souls be rested, and there memories not forgoten. Those who risk and (some times loose) there lives to better man kind, and advance humanity will always be the true heros of our lives.

Absolutely terrible news.
The world just lost another one of its most precious resources.

Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?

for the ones dreaming of space, its a tragecy. for the ones living in reality, its 7 deaths, wich costed billions of money. if it would’ve been spend for other things than a stupid dream, those 7 would be still alive, and you could help millions on this world, wich die because rich countries live in dreams.

anyways, i like to dream, too, and i feel very sorry for the 7. it hurt me, too, when i got the news. still, currenlty i hear it everywhere, as if it would be the only tragecy existing in this world, while people prepare for a war wich will cost thousands its live, while people suffer of food and water the whole day, while i see people dying on our streets, etc…

and btw, why is it not OT ?

Originally posted by davepermen:
and btw, why is it not OT ?[/b]

Writing a graphics engine or flying in space, the driving force (should) origin from the same emotional rush, the need to create and experience new things - explore unknown areas push the envelope. People who disagree would simply license a Q3 engine and
get it done asap.

You are living in the most fashinating time ever in mankind, greatly beacuse of poeple at MIT, NASA, INTEL, ID etc are pushing the envelope. Thats why, IMO, this != OT.

Originally posted by knackered:
Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?

What?

[This message has been edited by fritzlang (edited 02-01-2003).]

Just found out about it - you mean the space shuttle.
I agree with davepermen - it’s only 7 people. It’s bad, yes, but I didn’t see a topic created for the 9 people killed in the australian train crash a few days ago.
Get a grip, jesus. It’s called life.

It’s OT, but it is tragic. A stunning accident. I always thought they had reentry licked, now this. As for dreams vs lives, America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation. They’ve earned the right to dream IMHO. Things like human space exploration enrich millions of lives and are part of what makes life worth living.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).]

P.S. Dave, have the courage of your convictions, sell your computer and send the proceeds to save a life or two in Africa instead of using it to tell others to do the equivalent.

>>I always thought they had reentry licked<<

the tiles (used during reentry) have never been 100%

>>America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation<<

i thought u were wrong + it was japan but looking at new figures i do see u are correct.

>>Almost all rich nations have constantly failed to reach this 0.7% target.
For example, USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GDP is already lowest of any industrialized nation in the world.

Since 1992, Japan had been the largest donor of aid, in terms of raw dollars. That was until 2001 when the United States reclaimed that position, a year that also saw Japan’s amount of aid drop by nearly 4 billion dollars (as tables and charts below will also show).<<
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

new zealand has done much better than the us i see, 0.25% is bugger all.

>>Originally posted by knackered:
Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?<<

hehe

personally im a great believer in spacetravel (space, the final frontier, these … ) unfortunatly this incident will most likely harm progress.

we are actually in a mini darkages at present. whats happened 1957 spucnik then yuri gagarin in space -> 1969 man on the moon. then what?
sweet f.ck all

what we need to do.

build a mountain in the north of oz (about 20km high) stick a big gun on it + shoot things into space (not ppl of course). actually that black + white movie with the bullet in the end of the moon was the right idea (based on a hgwells story IIRC but he used airships to get to the moon anyways)

darkages u betta believe it boys.

Percentage of GDP is a misleading metric since US is significantly more productive than many other nations. But that is not the only factor, GDP measures different things in different nations and in the US for example GDP is used to measure some things that don’t actually produce revenues. For example domestic expenditure on cleanup of pollution of all sorts and activities resulting from the EPA are included but don’t generate any revenues that might contribute to the bottom line, in fact they are pure overhead and drain the coffers, not the other way around. Another example, the space program itself, it’s overhead, it costs but the value of stuff it produces is assessed and added to GDP, you spend money and you INCREASE GDP, getting squeezed at both ends. Per capita may be a better metric but not entirely. Raw dollars contributed is significant IMHO. Naysay it if it makes you feel better about your local paltry contribution. Private contributions flow from the US also, personal charitable donations to church and humanitarian organizations seem far more significant here than the various locations I grew up in in the UK, but then again most people I knew were skint in the UK.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).]

for the ones dreaming of space, its a tragecy. for the ones living in reality, its 7 deaths, wich costed billions of money. if it would’ve been spend for other things than a stupid dream, those 7 would be still alive, and you could help millions on this world, wich die because rich countries live in dreams.

right on, but why be so pissed at space exploration?Although I haven’t seen much use in it ,especially compared with scientific research equipment used on the surface of the earth,like (also very expensive) particle accelerators etc.But at least these dollars are spent on a novel(?) purpose ,our desire to learn.I can’t see how the would be seen as wasted money when so many billions are wasted on guns and missiles and software to guide them(IIRC more than 90%,98% I think, of the overall software research/production has been paid for by the US Dept. of Defence). Except of course for the fact that space exploration or nuclear physics are in part(mostly) a ‘front cover’ for the quest of the ultimate weapon but that is another matter.Get rid of those wasted dollars and if the world is still hungry we can consider getting rid of scientific research.

Yet I agree with you.A loss of a human life(or 7 of them) is always a tragedy but I can’t stand this thread’s attempt to make an epic out of it.And as you say war is preparing and thousands of lives will be lost and cities wasted (and billions wasted on the bombs that will waste them) and I bet you all will be talking about per-pixel lighting then as you were before.It won’t be such a tragedy because the ones killed won’t be shooting into space but minding their own bussiness.They won’t be heroes, just casualties of war.But that’s ok ,because I’m sure the US will give them humanitarian aid after destroying their homes so you’ll all have the right to sleep and dream peacefully.Dream on…

You are living in the most fashinating time ever in mankind, greatly beacuse of poeple at MIT, NASA, INTEL, ID etc are pushing the envelope. Thats why, IMO, this != OT.

I especially like INTEL in that list.Lovely CPU’s,really.Nice arch compared to those stupid sparcs and alphas and mips.Even AMD managed to get more performance out of less mhz.

P.S. Dave, have the courage of your convictions, sell your computer and send the proceeds to save a life or two in Africa instead of using it to tell others to do the equivalent.

Oh please…why should he be the one to pay for other people’s f**kups.He’s not responsible for the condition in Africa(unless he somehow is,that is), and it wouldn’t even help remedy the problem.

Has this months cocaine crop been destroyed or something?

best post in this thread(IMHO always)

i’m not pissed of by the deaths. i honour them for their work, and feel sad about their death.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2369340,00.html

have i seen a bush text about those people? they died today as well. about nobody cares. (news.google.com at least had them at one point in. half the page is filled with the nasa stuff)…

the dream of space will not die because of this accident, nor will scientific research. every researcher knows they just did their job, and they knew of their danger.

and yes i think this money can be used for bether things. dreams are okay. but this world has a reality we have to care about. we stand short in front of a war now. people are dying, not only those astronauts died today.
and for all the ones telling me we should not stop research and spend the money to support the current problems on the world. well yes i think we should. research brings the rich further away from the rest of the world. instead of flying into space, we could fly to africa. or where ever else on planet. i see so much adverts of u.s. for aid, help, and all the stuff. still i don’t see any real work done to help the world problems really. yes, sending money down will not help. but using the research power to solve food problems down there would help. using research power to know that war against irak is stupid would help as well. using research power to find reasons for problems on this world, like terrorism, like poverty, like aids, etc, does help.

and once we solved the problems we currently have on our list, we can go further, and try to solve the mystery of space.

still… may god bless those 7. i feel sorry for them to get abused in that much hyping and crying and stupid flamewars on the web, tv, etc currently. they just did their job. and they did it to do something good. they may rest in peace.

Zen, oh please right back at you. You’ve completely missed what I was saying.

I’m not advocating sacraficing the ‘stuff’ in your life to help others as an option. I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising others who don’t when you’re no better. We all have dreams, aspirations and a standard of living that would have been fit for a king a century or two ago.

If our ancestors had simply given over all the product of industry to the poor houses so many things that help so many people today would not exist.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).]

yes, sending money down will not help. but using the research power to solve food problems down there would help. using research power to know that war against irak is stupid would help as well. using research power to find reasons for problems on this world, like terrorism, like poverty, like aids, etc, does help.

Exactly but space exploration is no the ultimate purpose of research.Knowledge is(at least to scientists not governments).And knowledge and education is the only way I see of resolving these problems.Money there is enough.It’s wasted daily on futile wars as you mention.Will to solve these problems I do not see.Maybe they musn’t be solved.Maybe someone(like say Nike wich comes to mind) profits from them.Maybe the rest of us don’t know, or don’t care.
Maybe that’s the problem?

I hope I don’t have to sell my computer now to support my arguments.It’s the only thing I ever bought(besides necessary clothes and food etc.) and I’ve really used it to learn and create as have most of us here.And I refuse to be guilty about it.

[edit]
dorbie:I didn’t mean to offend you in any way but… hypocrisy?Why should he be guilty about a few dollars spent worthily?Others steal and create this situation and he should be the one to pay for it with the movey he(his parents’ whatever) earnt just to have the right to feel bad about it without beeing considered a hypocrit?Then we should all accept and even like the situation I guess.Or maybe I’m getting this wrong again.
[edit2](damn it… all those edits make this seem like IRC all of a sudden)

We all have dreams, aspirations and a standard of living that would have been fit for a king a century or two ago.

If our ancestors had simply given over all the product of industry to the poor houses so many things that help so many people today would not exist.

If that’s what you meant then I agree with you.The progress of mankind takes money and there’s plenty of other money spent in the regress of mankind that would be more than enough.But that doesn’t make dave a hypocrit.

[This message has been edited by zen (edited 02-01-2003).]

Originally posted by dorbie:
I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of criticising others who don’t when you’re no better.

i’m not a country, makes me a little different (or makes your statement sound rather childish actually…).

i support every 3rd world helping movement of my country, and i would not support my country to spend billions on war and space racing instead of 3rd world (and the own countries problems, of course). i am from switzerland btw.

i don’t think selling my pc to send the money down would help anyone (as the bill i would get for sending the money would cost more than the actual money anyways). but support in education, support for uniting even those countries with our rich countries here, and science work to solve energy, food supply and war problems are definitely worth to support. and thats what i do.

Originally posted by dorbie:
Percentage of GDP is a misleading metric since US is significantly more productive than many other nations. But that is not the only factor, GDP measures different things in different nations and in the US for example GDP is used to measure some things that don’t actually produce revenues. For example domestic expenditure on cleanup of pollution of all sorts and activities resulting from the EPA are included but don’t generate any revenues that might contribute to the bottom line, in fact they are pure overhead and drain the coffers, not the other way around. Another example, the space program itself, it’s overhead, it costs but the value of stuff it produces is assessed and added to GDP, you spend money and you INCREASE GDP, getting squeezed at both ends. Per capita may be a better metric but not entirely. Raw dollars contributed is significant IMHO. Naysay it if it makes you feel better about your local paltry contribution. Private contributions flow from the US also, personal charitable donations to church and humanitarian organizations seem far more significant here than the various locations I grew up in in the UK, but then again most people I knew were skint in the UK.

Counting raw dollars aren’t particularly fair. Denmark (which top the list) with its 5 million people and 1,599 million dollar obviously does more than the US with its 250 million people and 10,884 million dollars. Not saying that the US is bad in any way though.

A lot of people die every die in every nation. Death is always tragic, but it is not always news, since it is so commonplace. It is news when the people who died are remarkable or the circumstances of their death is remarkable… both are true in the case of the seven astronauts who died. It is silly to be bitter that the news media decides that a space shuttle breaking up during reentry is less newsworthy than a train crash in Australia or Africa, just because fewer lives were lost.

It is also foolish to think that President Bush should give public comments on all accidental deaths around the world; that would trivialize the comments he does make when the circumstances warrant. This is a tragic set of deaths for the United States, so its leader performs his duties as a leader. This is not to say that he is not saddened over anybody’s death except these 7 astronauts; nobody can say that but Mr. Bush himself. It is merely to say that he doesn’t have any official responsibility in relation to those other deaths.

I won’t defend all of the spending decisions made by our government our citizens. In fact, a lot of them make really stupid and selfish financial decisions. I know I’ve done so from time to time. However, cutting all space funding or military funding to redirect those finances would be a silly overreaction. Rather, I place the blame on the wealthy people all across the world who squander their financial blessing on their selfish whims and desires rather than on helping their fellow man. The US has more than its share of wealthy citizens, and so it shoulders more of the blame, but the fault truly lies at the personal level rather than the national.

War with Iraq is not on President Bush’s agenda, nor Prime Minister Blair’s, nor the leadership of any of the other UN member nations. The removal from power of a very dangerous dictator and the disarmament of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction is what they want. They would prefer a peaceful solution, but after 12 years of constant defiance, these leaders are prepared to use drastic measures to accomplish this end, for the betterment of Iraq, the Middle East, and the rest of the world. It is obvious that Iraq is trying to secretly acquire weapons of mass destruction, and that Hussein has a history of international aggression. He’s even used chemical weapons against his own people. Many more lives are likely to be lost due to inaction if we allow him to remain in power until he obtains these weapons and decides to use them.

daveperman, your response to this thread is pretty reprehensible. zen and knackered answered better, but still disrespectfully. I cannot see any difference to what you have posted here than if you had gone to a funeral where somebody had died in a car wreck hit by a drunk driver, and told the people there “If you had spent the money on the car for people starving in Africa instead, then your loved one would still be alive, so that the death is your own stupid selfish fault. And besides, 40 people just died in a train wreck in Africa, so why bother mourning this one person? I feel sorry about this guy dying and all, but you guys really should get your priorities straight. May he rest in peace, and bless you all.” There are times and places for such dissensions, and part of maturity is knowing the difference. If you cannot yet tell the difference, “it is better to not say anything and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

If you can’t be respectful of the dead, at least have the decency to leave alone those who are trying to.

i told several times that i do respect those who died due the accident. i simply get annoyed by the big hype of these deaths, and how much got hurt because of it. its 7 that died, so about 7 families cried about the loss of a family member, and a lot of their friends cried, too, and will continue to do so.

but i see tons of people crying oh no, my dreams got hurt, space is everything for me, and they don’t look at this world, realising that all this nasa thing is not about realising startrek, but using the money for… stuff. its really tons of money that get spent to explore space, and i don’t see much use in it.

and if now a car accident would happen, because of some drunken stupid bitch, and all the world would cry, and bring tons of news about it (remember lady diana?), then i would say the same: get over it, feel sorry for her, may god bless her. but remember there’s much more on this world than this one tragecy.
and thats all i say currently. and, that nasa has too much money to bomb peoples into space, and the military gets too much money to now move into war, than money gets spent to try to solve real world problems right now.

it is about irak btw. no mather how bush playes it around and talking about most dangerous politics going on there, building up of massdestruction and anything. he hasn’t prooved it, but he prooves to fix the worlds eyes on an imaginary topic instead of looking at real problems. irak is just another country like about tens, houndreds of other countries on this world (or not ). he has to killemall then. and that thought is stupid. so is the thought that he has the right to kill saddam. (in fact, he tells us to remove saddam. but what we get is war, people. war. that is not killing or removing one person, that is killing thousands of innocent, thats about erasing the place to live for several ten/houndred thousands. its about suffering and killing of people who only live, and that because of one person you want to kill? stupid. war is stupid. supporting war is stupid. so supporting bush is currently stupid)

back to the topic, i said yet i feel sorry for the ones who died. and i feel sorry about the flamewars that got created because of them. why can’t we let them rest in peace like other peoples that died?

Originally posted by davepermen:

i support every 3rd world helping movement of my country, and i would not support my country to spend billions on war and space racing instead of 3rd world (and the own countries problems, of course). i am from switzerland btw.

I’m sure you knew that a lot of this “space racing” that you refer to, is research on international level for diseases that cant always be studied on earth. Diseases that might hit you, me and everyone else.