Columbia (not OT)

You say you respect them at various points in your posts. If you didn’t notice, I gave you credit for that much in my last post. Yet the remainder of each of these posts contradicts this statement. If my last post didn’t make you understand how (and your latest post supports this hypothesis), then it is pointless for me to try any further, and any attempt will just derail this thread further. So all I ask is that you please leave the remainder of this thread alone, and let those who wish to respect the dead do so without your protestations.

Humus, you are wrong, it doesn’t do more. You may believe it gives more per capita but it is plain wrong to say it does more. I for one don’t forget that the Largesse of most European countries would not be possible today without the USA.

In anycase, this is too off the beaten path. I’m bailing on this thread. No country is without it’s flaws. There’s way too much self righteous preaching & finger pointing by political self interests in Europe these days. Just don’t buy into it all.

Peace be upon you.

daveperman, your response to this thread is pretty reprehensible. zen and knackered answered better, but still disrespectfully.

Disrespectful?Just because we want to see things for what they are?None of our posts disagreed with the fact that 7 dead human beeings isn’t sad.I merely disagree with all that epic stuff about heroes and mankind.If you want to romanticize be my guest but it has nothing to do with respect for death.

So the US have the right to bomb countries for the sake of their inhabitants and mankind.What about all the other countries which allready have weapons of mass destruction?What about the ones which have allready used them?Are they less dangerous?Can they be ‘controlled’?Maybe we should bomb them all…

Originally posted by dorbie:
If our ancestors had simply given over all the product of industry to the poor houses so many things that help so many people today would not exist.

Probably true, and let me add something.

Why don’t poor countries help themselves? Why does the west have to send people to teach other people how to create a well, about agriculture, basic math, …

The space shuttle represents a whole lot of though and effort, hundreds of years of science. It’s what we do and the people in poor countries should do what they do.

If we were to put stuff like this on hold and sent help for the needy until there would be no more of them, then how long do you suppose it would take for mankind to go into space?

OK really last post.

V-man, the problem with your last sentence is the assumption that giving all indefinitely would eliminate the needy. It’s called Marxist communism; from each according to their means to each according to their needs. The needy are to be found everywhere, giving without bounds does nothing to help the needy, it just drags everyone down.

As JFK said, “A rising tide raises all boats”, what we keep and invest raises standards for all and we can ultimately afford to give more, or better yet trade more so productive people everywhere benefit.

A similar discussion is happening on another of my frequented forums.

http://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154357

Political/GDP/Humanitarium crap aside (not to mention the all too common “Space exploration is a waste of money” crap) and the “Why are these seven so special - surely someone else died today”, may the 7 who lost their lives rest in peace and may peace be given to those who are suffering the loss of their loved ones.

Some points on the utter crap in this post…

  1. The space “industry” is responsible for a HUGE number of developments which have benefitted the world, from construction techniques to medical technologies to food/water creation and purification.

  2. The leader of Iraq is single handedly responsible for GENOCIDE. The people of Iraq deserve a peaceful existence without the dictatorship which is bringing them so much hardship and suffering. [Edit] Not to mention the huge volumes of completely crap biological and chemical agents hidden somewhere in the country. All Iraq has to do is hand over the chemicals and the whole war thing will go away.[/edit]

  3. Humanitarian aid is useless if you’re giving it to the warlords that have caused the suffering in the first place. “Poor” countries are generally ruled by the rich minority who, through oppression and senseless wars, destroy the very country they rule (Somalia for example).

  4. Lots of people are crying because lots of cameras were pointing at the shuttle while it broke up. Mentioning that the derailment in Aus didn’t get the same publicity and making a comparison between the nine that died on that accident and the 7 on the Shuttle fails to notice that the 9000+ people who died in auto accidents in the States each year get virtually no publicity throughout the world. On top of the cameras there’s also the rarity of space travel.

I’ve said my 2c now please stop crapping on about political agendas and holier-than-thou humanitarian crap and let this thread disappear off the list.

[This message has been edited by rgpc (edited 02-01-2003).]

Originally posted by dorbie:
[b]Humus, you are wrong, it doesn’t do more. You may believe it gives more per capita but it is plain wrong to say it does more. I for one don’t forget that the Largesse of most European countries would not be possible today without the USA.

In anycase, this is too off the beaten path. I’m bailing on this thread. No country is without it’s flaws. There’s way too much self righteous preaching & finger pointing by political self interests in Europe these days. Just don’t buy into it all.

Peace be upon you.[/b]

You obviously misunderstood my post. IT doesn’t do more those 1,599 million than those 10,884 dollar, but THEY (the Danes) do more than the US. In other word, what I’m saying is that the average Dane contributes more than the average US citizen (despite the fact that the average US citizen is more wealthy than the average Dane).
Statements like “America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation” and complaining about other contries “local paltry contribution” is very unfair. There’s no way the Danes are able to compete with the US in terms of raw dollars due to their small population. It’s easy for a 250 million country to look at absolute numbers and claim greatness. The splitting of the world into countries is pretty arbitrary, I could sum up all what Europe contributes in raw dollars and feel good about myself because of how the Europe contribution compares to the US. But that would be as unfair too given that Europe has more people than the US.
Except for that I don’t disagree with you on any points. I don’t think that sending loads of money or food to the 3rd world is a longterm solution either. It’s better to contribute by expanding or moving industries and production plants over there to employ people such that they can get their own economy up and running. But this is an OT branch from an OT thread, so it’s a pretty useless discussion anyway.

Pah, when will the USA learn, Space Shuttles are so utterly crap when compared to rockets. When you get past the novelty of the fact that they can be reused, you see that they cost MORE per launch than a rocket, are far far more expensive to build in the first place, then there is the maintenance, and i dont think they can carry as much cargo as a large rocket. The Russian Proton rocket has a 100% record, has never failed, and has a far far better cost per kg for launch than a shuttle…

I would have joined the moaning, but then this came upon my eyes:

Originally posted by dorbie:
[b]It’s OT, but it is tragic. A stunning accident. I always thought they had reentry licked, now this. As for dreams vs lives, America exports more foreign humanitarian aid than any other nation. They’ve earned the right to dream IMHO. Things like human space exploration enrich millions of lives and are part of what makes life worth living.

[This message has been edited by dorbie (edited 02-01-2003).][/b]

dorbie (and the rest of you ‘god bless America’ folks, please go somewhere else for a moment),
America nowadays also destroys more freedom than any other nation. You make me sick. Serious.
Not because you are sorry for them, I am too. But because you (may I say so: typically) put it above everthing else. Bah.
Your nation goes to war over what? Nothing but vintage suspicion and irrational blabberings. Think about that for a moment before calling for further blessings and strangers’ pity.

I liked this board and the people on it, until this thread showed the character of so many of the posters. Can’t you take your petty political differences and hatred of America someplace more appropriate than a tribute to the recently deceased? Would you interrupt a eulogy to say that it was too flattering or one-sided anywhere except under the anonymous safety of a messageboard? If you disapprove, at least have the decency to stay out of this thread. Make an “America sucks and Bush is a warmongering fool” thread for all I care, and complain to your heart’s content in there.

We didnt ask to have 2 important building and thousands of lives lost on 9-11. They woke a beast and there is hell to pay.

A freaky thing is that for Physics class, the day before the accident, I wrote a paper discussing the effects of friction and entry angle during atmosphere re-entry. Now this

Originally posted by chxfryer:
We didnt ask to have 2 important building and thousands of lives lost on 9-11. They woke a beast and there is hell to pay.

hehe nice one (oh wait …)

mr shoe is correct the space shuttle is just a mastabatory rocket, in practal terms its bollux.

what are spacerockets ?
basically a spacecapsule stuck atop a huge bomb
(blackadder voice) well that sounds very safe.

>>Can’t you take your petty political differences and hatred of America someplace more appropriate than a tribute to the recently deceased<<

yeah but he started it

i wonder if we’ll be seeing model columbia fireworks this year at guyfaukes, i got one of the spaceshuttle challanger ones a few years ago. unfortunatly unlike its namesake it didnt rise into the air before exploding in a blaze of glory. it just sort of sat on the ground spitting out fireballs (like a impotent roman candle) bloody thing cost about 10 dollars

Originally posted by knackered:
I agree with davepermen - it’s only 7 people. It’s bad, yes, but I didn’t see a topic created for the 9 people killed in the australian train crash a few days ago.

I agree with both of you guys.
Not to mention they were trained military crew, earning thousands $$ a month precisely for risking their lifes.
It’s surely sad for their families, but the guys knew the risks and this job was their own choice, so why should we care?

Julien.

Originally posted by V-man:
Why don’t poor countries help themselves? Why does the west have to send people to teach other people how to create a well, about agriculture, basic math, …

  1. because our richness and knowledge is by a big part based on abusing those poor countries. slavery, wars, and other abuses. overrunning of foreign terrytorry to steal all resources, etc. we have stolen their richness over quite some time, and we still do (now we go to kill a country because we want oil to be cheaper… oh wait, its because its an evil country… not the oil…)

  2. because this forum is based on the same thought: sharing. this forum would not work if everyone who knows something would hold it back. those countries indeed ask for help, like people in here ask for help. we do help those in here, and it does not hurt us in any way. i never said we have to step back to let them be equal on the evolutionary way to get rich. but we could stop to run further away and using their shoes to run that fast.

  3. because all i want is peace and a happy live on this whole world. that will never happen as long as people are not equally rich/wealthy or how ever called.

anyways. its the same with the capitalistic thinking people. capitalism is okay, as every other system. there’s just the problem that those people get overly egoistic, always looking away from the wrong/illegal things their country does, only looking at their own satisfaction, and the fun in tv.

anyways. i respect you all, you’ve proven to not only think capitalistic in here, but instead like humans.

per head, the u.s. does not do that much or the world. and what it takes from the world is actually more. currently. i hope it changes (but i see currently war comming… how stupid can people be to support in the 3rd millenium still war over other solutions?)

anyways, may god bless you all. follow your hearts, not the mathematical thoughts you can have.

Originally posted by chxfryer:
We didnt ask to have 2 important building and thousands of lives lost on 9-11. They woke a beast and there is hell to pay.

Who did? Iraq?

The originator of this thread:
What I hear is so ultra-tragic. Please cry a tear in the name of mankind, science, futurism, machines and all that. Space exploration and graphics programming triggers the same fashination-neurons in my head, they are both top entrys on my list of meaningful things in life. This his is so sad

I would say that this space shuttle flight was the lifetime dream of everyone aboard. It’s safe to say considering there are queues of people willing to part with their fortunes in order to get the same opportunity. Heck, I would love to do the same, even given the risks.
They were not acting as selflessly as is being implied.

BTW, I’m taken aback with the abuse of the term “the nation is in a state of mourning”. What superlatives are your media going to use for a genuine tragedy? Presumably shrills of white noise?

P.S. USA please do not provoke a 3rd world war in order to bolster your faultering economy. I’m sure you can find other forms of energy with some investment (cut back on the space shuttles maybe?)

Once again certain people hijack a thread about a tragic event for their own political agenda. This happened with the WTC thread and I found it quite sick then. If you want to have a rant about the US start another thread.

[This message has been edited by Adrian (edited 02-02-2003).]

Originally posted by Adrian:
Once again certain people hijack a thread about a tragic event for their own political agenda. This happened with the WTC thread and I found it quite sick then. If you want to have a rant about the US start another thread.

I’ll 2nd that.