I guess it is pretty unrealistic that NVIDIA or ATI drops D3D support. 
To many gamers would run berserk. However the graphic companies should be worried about this as well. What’s the next step? They need to ask MS for adding a feature to WGF to test if their new technology is working? I guess they will work with OpenGL in the company also and really hope that this new “technology” won’t affect the driver support of NVIDIA and ATI.
However many different opinions are crawling arround in the web. Can anybody really confirm that the D3D-Wrapper is only used when using MS OpenGL ICD or is it also getting active when using another ICD of a third party? If yes, we really should play the game with Microsoft and get graphic vendors to show a message in aeroglass envroiment that user should deactivate aeroglass and to blame MS to be the orgin of this problem. The worth thing that might happen is that the public is thinking OpenGL is causing any problems and is bad. There are easily rumors spread arround that would blame to be “to old to run with modern technologies”.
So if anybody can confirm that this would also affect all ICDs, we should start a fire in all graphic, developer and Doom3 gaming sites to say their opinion loudly!
Additionally a question, that would bring up my worth nightmare. Could it be MS is trying to bash OpenGL, because they don’t control the driver code and wants to avoid that somebody gains access to their DRM model to grab a DVD or something like that? Then it easily could happen that non aeroglass envroiment are not allowed to do things that are allowed in “normal mode”. This would be a catastrophe. Doesn anyone with beta access, can check this out?
possible solution: win32 MESA dll with ICD support?
really i don’t care about aeroglass much, i will just suggest people not to use aeroglass to have full opengl support…
I read somewhare (don’t remember where) that graphics quality may be much worse in non Areo mode…
We should fight back.
Everyone should realize that Microsoft will not stop doing things like this until they control the whole world. They consistantly fail to meet standards in an attempt to set their own.
People should stop trying to get Microsoft to change, and just kick it to the curb.
Developers and manufacturers can make an effort to help promote non-Microsoft products. I’m sure Microsoft is going to charge manufacturers for every piece of hardware you want digitally signed. That’s just another way for them to take your money. Not to mention they charge for the OS itself.
Save your money, go get a free Operating System. Encourage your hardware and software development companies to support your OS. I would much rather spend my $100 on a new piece of hardware or software when I can get the OS for free.
Now, I know the average user probably cannot take Linux and use it. Therefore, we should also encourage developers to make things easier on the average consumer. Take OS installation for example, you put in the Windows CD, and it does it for you. Linux is usually not so easy. Simple solution: Create an advanced and simplistic install. One that will do everything for you, and one that will let the power-user configure things as it does now. Applications could also be written this way. I can easily see how most apps are written for the power-user and not the average user. For some of those, all it would take is a new GUI interface.
The main problem here is everyone is just going to play ‘follow the leader’ and use what everyone else uses. Make a stand. Become a leader. Honestly, the only reason I still have Windows is because I cannot run some games under Linux. If I was able to run them, Windows would be long gone. And if what I’ve been reading is true, I won’t be able to even play some of my games on Windows Vista because of the low version support and no extensions.
If Microsoft wants to go around in an attempt to phase out technologies to promote its own growth, I saw we return the favor.
I can help, I have a 100% sure fire solution to the problem.
Over the past six months or so I’ve been writing a DirectX 9 compatibility layer for the WINE project. The layer basically translates DirectX calls into OpenGL calls allowing DirectX games and application to run under Linux and in theory Aeroglass should work too. ( DirectX for WINE )
The compatibility layer has already been modified to use WGL instead of GLX and is already capable of running DirectX games and application under Windows replacing Microsoft’s DirectX 9 Library.
Extending the idea to Windows Vista you could have good OpenGL drivers and run Aeroglass through the DirectX 9 compatibility layer, loosing a little performance for window effects but gaining 100% performance for OpenGL applications.
If anyone is interested in taking this idea any further then please send me an email. oliver_stieber@yahoo.co.uk
Whenever a new version of windows breaks an app, the default user action is to blame Microsoft:
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/12/23/45481.aspx
http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2003/10/15/55296.aspx
If there were a decent number of GL2 apps out there before Vista got serious market penetration, the user experience of upgrading to Vista would be “my apps worked fine on XP and now they’re broken, therefore Vista sucks”.
Of course, a ‘GL2 app’ doesn’t actually need to use 2.0 features, it only has to refuse to run when GL_VERSION<2.
I slapped together a quick logo for the cause, so people might put it on their homepages and link to this page:
the best method of attack is to hit ms in the pocketbook, 5 methods i can see
A/ some lawsuit forcing ms to include full support for opengl, based on thier monopolistic methods of trying to exclude ogl (im sure they will come up with some very lame excuses stability/security etc but we all know these aint the truth), this has a good chance of suceeding in the european union
note the windows version without the media player they had to release, though in that case it was way to late, i mean how long has windows xp already been out.
this needs to be done ASAP so a ruling comes out before vista is shipped. a lawsuit could be attempted in the US as well though wont have such as good chance of sucess (ms + the us gove seem to be bedfellows) but even if it doesnt suceed it will be bad publicity for ms, + will drive the shareprice down a few dollars.
hit them where it hurts, in the pocketbook!
B/ ms’s biggest money earner + biggest weakness is ms office, there are myriad methods of ‘discouraging’ ppl for using ms office from encoraging ppl to use openoffice upwards
C/ find someone whos written a gui (or whatever) similar to whatevers in vista, take ms to court (dont expect to win) but do a ms + hold up the release of vista for a few years, poetic justice
D/ somehow convince apple to allow their OS to be installed on generic computers, (though one of apples pluses is its limited range of hardware it runs on thus writing drivers is easier, but hardware standards are much better today than they were say 10years ago, ie less conflicts etc)
im pretty sure if apple done this their market share would rise from 3% to 10-20% in a year + ultimatly they would make more profits for apple, im sure a lot of companies will preinstall the apple os on their computers (esp laptops)
the main things stopping this is mr X is a twat + will not admit he was ever wrong, good example check out apple have finally gotten around to releasing a multibutton mouse recently, until now multibutton actions (eg rightclick) were performed on the keyboard, how was that simplier, me no understando
E/ xbox360 is due out later this year, even though its virtually guaranteed to tank, a little nudge down that slope certainly wont harm matters.
-talk about xbox360s lack of backwards capabilty
-inferior hardware compared to the ps3
-no blueray disk (u gonna have to buy a xbox360 + blueray disk player to watch the new movies making it more expensive than just a ps3)
-the lack of quality launchtitles + if its true to form of the xbox1 the lack of quality titles fullstop
Here’s something I don’t truly understand: OpenGL should be window independent in the first place! And then we would never ever have to worry about Windows or Microsoft again. Everything I render with GL should go into an offscreen buffer! Windows shouldn’t care about that, right? When I’m done, I could simply pass the result to aeroglass, if it were just a raw buffer, with an image in it. And then aeroglass could do whatever it wanted with it: stretch it, bend it, etc…
This even fits in nicely with the Vista design, as they say that every window will be rendered to an offscreen buffer first, and then composited on the display in a final step.
Ok, it isn’t that bad at all. It will affect gl windowed apps under aero but fullscreen games are going to run full speed. Maybe ihvs will circumvent the aero problem as well.
Originally posted by barthold:
We believe it possible to provide an ICD with full composited desktop support while adhering to the stability and security requirements in Windows Vista. But we need Microsoft’s help in doing so.
Obviously IHV’s can circumvent the problem but they need Microsofts help and they need your help. Don’t wait for the problem to be fixed. Email your nVidia, ATI, et al and tell them to make OpenGL a first class API. Even if you think this is FUD, send the email. It’ll take you all of two minutes. You may end up being sorry if you don’t.
Apple has a composite desktop technology with doublebuffering like Aeroglass that is full compatible with OpenGL. If they can do it why not Microsoft ?
My question is first is : ¿ In this case, what Microsoft need to do is allow and help to the 3d Accelerated Hardware Manufacturers is to write Instalable Client Drivers that support OpenGL and the new Composite Desktop resulting in 0% performace loose in Windows Vista ?
Second : ¿ Microsoft don’t must deactive composite desktop (Aeroglass) when a Installable Client Driver (ICD) is loaded ?
Third : ¿ What is the main benefit of the Aeroglass composite desktop for Windows user, a user interface flicker-free, smoth windows moving, continuos video, anything else ?
Four: ¿ If we make enough preasure like costumers this can change the things ? ¿ How ?
there is a conversation going on at gamedev.net on tis topic also.
one of the moderators, Yann L seems to have a grasp of what effects this may have, not good.
I summarised most of his thoughts from the thread to an off-topic post on groklaw.net
This part seemed most relevant…
"Sure. As Barthold mentioned, 3DLabs don’t see a problem with making their OpenGL drivers work on Aeroglass without any wrapper at all, at full speed and full feature set. They only need MS to give them the details of the internal driver/Aeroglass interface. Should this become available to them, then both 3DLabs and Nvidia would create a compatible driver in no time. ATI won’t have a choice, and will have to join.
The problem is that MS doesn’t want to give them that info, because they want to see GL dead. So either 3DLabs & co manage to put enough pressure on MS, or this issue is sorted out by an anti-competitivity lawsuit against MS. At least in the EU, a new directive forces software manufacturers to open file formats, protocols, and interfaces to the competition under certain circumstances. This might come in handy."
Well this is no surprise.
But it is clear - the time has come to stop building for the latest versions of Windows.
Apple is coming to intel, linux continues to shine. Win XP and 2k will continue to support OpenGL. The choices are rich and abundant. The PS3 is coming.
Linux in the server room, Mac on the desktop, PS3 at home. And they all use TCPIP and OpenGL.
Anyone with an ounce of moral fiber will refuse to cave to such monopolistic practices. Open Standards like tcp/ip and OpenGL are clearly what the industry needs.
I am buying my Mac tomorrow.
XCode here I come.
Although I was somehow disappointed by that, it does not necessarily mean that their intention is degrading OpenGL and attract more and more developers from deifferent arenas to the Direct3D world.
They may want to relief some hardware vendors from providing OpenGL drivers and hence linux will have no chance in 3D acceleration since it’s still now a developer-spare.
I remebr that 3Dfx did the same for OpenGL, wrapping their neat decent API, called Glide. so it’s up to the implentor to decide how to implemnt it, then how come Mesa3D provides a software impl. so it’s an option and Direct3D impl would not be worst at all.
You see.
What could be done? Nothing. Switch to Mac OS X.
I beleive that the creator of the platofr knows better than us. 
Since I have access to Vista I performed some tests.
System:
- Vista Beta1(AMDx64)
- AMDx64
- ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
After install Aero is the active desktop theme. When I started up a small OpenGL application of my own I got an OpenGL view but with several artifacts. The renderer string gave: OpenGL to D3D. The version: 1.4
Then I activated the classic Desktop theme en ran the application again. However the renderer was the same, no genuine OpenGL.
Next step was to install the latest ATI drivers.
As expected the OS refused to update because it found the drivers to be less suitable, after overriding this they installed just fine.
After a restart and an other run of the app… Now I got normal ATI Hardware support (Renderer: RADEON 9800 Pro x86/MMX/3DNow!, version: 2.0.5220). Performance seemed ok too.
Ofcourse I tried to enable Aero and see what happened. At first glance it looks the same however, all the “fancy” effects are gone (dissolving, tild, etc…)
Conclusion seems to be that Vista in it’s current state can have full OpenGL but not with fancy Vista. The install of a OpenGL ICD effectively disables Aero. Is that a bad thing?
I’m getting really angry about such things, because they’re killing OpenGL , so people don’t switch to other Operating Systems(because there won’t be any games for it, or good visualation software).
OpenGL is a hardware API and should not be a software emulation. We developed a large C++ library based on OpenGL so software emulation would be a huge problem for us. We need the speed !!!
It’s very smart step from their point of view.
1st: games like Neverwinter nights, UT, Doom3, Quakes, RTCW, F.E.A.R. and bunch of others use GL, and !!!crap!!! there are Linux/Mac OS ports. Moreover they are not going to run on X-box, at least if MS don’t force devs to write DX engine (Doom3 etc. case)
2nd: PS3 is more friendly to GL, why not make GL undesireble platform for PC devs, so that there are no ports to PS3 later???
Originally posted by Treesong:
The renderer string gave: OpenGL to D3D. The version: 1.4
Could try this app : http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/ and gives the full OpenGL report (if it doesn’t breach your NDA). This might interest other people, and try to run the rendering tests provided by the application.