Call to Action: Ensure that OpenGL remains a first class API under Windows Vista

OpenGL
301

I think we’ve gone a bit out of topic comparing both OGL and D3D which is better nad more dominant.
This is out of question. OGL rules in terms of:

Quality
Performance
Visual Quality
API design
Flexibility
Extensibility
Low level, closer to the hardware
Exposing the silicon features directly
More straight to the metal
Uniqueness
Power
Portability
Stability
Useability

However, let me say that D3D roles in terms of:
Suckness
Malformed API
Performance killing
Quality suckness
and many things to add, any thing bad u can think of

And the glory boga boga Serious Sam game now changed it’s favourite only and only API from opengl to d3d for the same reason, reliability and stability hahahahahahahahah

ATI now is recommended for most of the games because they make OGL suck and D3D ****

302

I’m not proffessional developer, I learned OpenGL for fun and what I can say is at least for newbie OpenGL API is much more intuitive than DXAPI. As gamer I do not see difference in quality and performance between OpenGL and DirectX games. I think that not only developers but gamers/professionals must e-mail nVidia and ATI with Vista OpenGL requests.

Looked at vista screenshots from microsoft.com. Looks like KDE Theme :slight_smile: Looked at “MS why buy Vista”. In fact the only reason is better support for hardware newer than Vista. That’s why I moved to WinXP, Win98 just lacked new hardware support. But the security of WinXP is below any curses. Unpatched WinXP is extremely buggy and laggy. So the Vista situation is about to be XP-like. Vista will become de-facto standard only about 2 years after the release, not earlier. Imagine ordinary mr. Smith user. Does he really want to pay 150$ for Vista Home starter edition or even twice as much for Vista Pro? Gamer will not upgrade his OS as he knows that Vista takes much more RAM. That’s why some gamers still use Win98 and compatible hardware. Unlike Win95 to Win98 or even Win98 to XP upgrade Vista upgrade does not boost stability as WinXP SP2 with security center disabled is stable enough.

People reading this post please answer the following question: Are you really going to spend $$$ to upgrade your desktop XP to Vista? Do you really need KDE-like themes and symbolyc links under windows?

Also DRM stuff. Independent polls say that most of the users use warez copies. Most means about half of USA and Japan users and much more in the rest of the world.

Albert Einstein (Key scientist of 20th century) said:

The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in the United States is closely connected with this.
Do not forget that “prohibition” is not only alcohol law, but ban on branch of market.

So for ordinary user Vista’s Digital Restrictions Manager is not good thing and he is not very enthusiastic about upgrading. And independent (independent=not entirely bought by MicroSoft) economical studies show that hardware manufacturers benefit from copyright piracy.

BTW some FSF enthusiasts fear that DRM is MS way to disable blue-ray disks under Linux.

So, developers, do not panic, you have almost two years till Vista becomes de-facto standart desktop-OS and you have enough time to develop great OpenGL 2.0 games with visual effects much better than these of DirectX9.0 or even DX10.0. And MS will have time to think about OGL under Vista.

My reply to all those who said “We must switch to linux and go cross platform and **** M$ this way”: To install nVidia OGL drivers on Windows you just point-n-click. To install nVidia drivers under Linux you need to manually edit config files, think about kernel headers and so on. When and if software and driver installations for linux will become as simple as Win we can say that linux is desktop system.

Key OpenGL games were ported to Linux. Key 3D proffessional programs are available for linux. But do not forget that warez % worldwide is much higher than 50%. And Linux warez game ports are available via eMule with tens of sources at avg speed of 0.3KBps and the same Win game is available from Bittorent at avg speed of 20KBps. So de facto as home platform for games Windows is freeier than Linux. And please do not play ostrich with head in sand saying “warez is evil so we neglect it”. Keep your analysys real world based.

BTW DXSDK user-friendly documentation and tutorials are free while OGL Red/Blue/Orange book is not free. It’s great disadvantage of OpenGL as small enthusiastic developers do not see good openGL tutorials.

It’s another disadvantage of open compared to MS. Open stuff learning is manual based, MS and Windows stuff is tutorial based.

Finally:
Forget your “Fuco the M$”. You are not strong enough to **** microsoft. And Google+nVidia+ATI+Sun+OSDL+FSF are not strong enough.

Create good cross-platform software using OpenGL 2.0. But please be polite and do not say others what API they must use to not be evil.

Improve availability and freeness of good openGL documentation.

And, the most important, DO NOT PANIC!

303

It’s pretty obious that your views are mature and objective. This is what we call a professional reply, maintaining a balance between the different points. And at the same time explaining how OpenGL can defend it’s self in the market to be the top-notch API in the CG realm.

304

Hi,

If they really won’t support OGL, couldn’t we simply try to do the same the Europeans did regarding the Media Player ?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=24218

It would force M$ support OGL in one windows flavor at least.

wpr.

305

Originally posted by muxec:
To install nVidia drivers under Linux you need to manually edit config files, think about kernel headers and so on. When and if software and driver installations for linux will become as simple as Win we can say that linux is desktop system.
just stumbled across this post and had to say ‘bull****’. pro-linux oriented distros like Gentoo or even LFS do need this editing of config files. common user distros like Mandriva and many others are even simpler than windows in installing those kind of drivers. open package manager, place a check mark next to the driver you want, hit install, restart x-server, there we go. under windows you insert cd-rom, click away tons of DO-NOT-COPY screens, bang your head over what additional crap this installer installs and trying to prevent it, hit reboot, and if lucky it works the first boot and otherwise you are invited to visit the roll-back feature. wow… now which one is easier i ask?

306

It is no doubt that Linux rules the computing realm, and this is out of question. :smiley:

Windowsis not bad at all but some times it acts stupidly and immaturely. This is due to lack of good design which causes alot of stability problems.

Anyway we are here to defend OpenGL. DirectX is good and we all agree that MS has something good in their platform, but to compare it with OpenGL and make it the kernel to implement it, this is crap. No way out. It’s the same as trying to implem,ent a Formula one engine using a motorbike. Or even worse emulating PS3 with 480 old PC. :smiley:

307

I’m wondering… some people in this thread mentioned that Aeroglass will only turn off for the window that runs opengl…
I suppose they ment application?
Otherwise you could simply put an opengl window without borders inside an Aeroglass window with borders…
Which would solve everything

308

nope… it’s the same problem as if you would try to run an x-server with propriatary ati-driver and framebuffer with kernel-prefab-ati driver. both want to access the hardware in raw-mode and conflict with each other. the same for directx-vs-opengl. if directx goes fullscreen mode no other 3d api can run besides as it grabs full ownership of the screen, blocking the memory space it needs. if now opengl runs that aero-crap has to kill the opengl window (window, not app, opengl hooks into a window context handler) as directx needs the full screen ownership.

this is my understanding of the problem and hence there will be no solution to run opengl besides aero-crap unless directx receives a ‘gentle’ fullscreen mode, which i doubt.

309

I just wondering why MS can not try to be neutral in this case ? Why not they seperate windowing manager from the OS itself ? much like how X-Window implemented ?

For me DirectX is just a API that allow extended drawing capabilities and it should be intergrated so tightly in the OS for Vista ! like IE tightly intergrated into Windows !

OpenGL is just another API that can be plugable into the windowing manager much like X-Window. Actually X-Window has a better design compare with Windows itself. Is platform indepedant among the UNIX oses including Linux. I just wondering whether all the decisions in MS are marketing oriented instead of from a software archtecture and engineering point of view. Still remember my lecturers keep telling us when designing a system all the modules should be decouple as much as possible.

310

Originally posted by Choong Hong Cheng:
[b]I just wondering why MS can not try to be neutral in this case ? Why not they seperate windowing manager from the OS itself ? much like how X-Window implemented ?

For me DirectX is just a API that allow extended drawing capabilities and it should be intergrated so tightly in the OS for Vista ! like IE tightly intergrated into Windows !

OpenGL is just another API that can be plugable into the windowing manager much like X-Window. Actually X-Window has a better design compare with Windows itself. Is platform indepedant among the UNIX oses including Linux. I just wondering whether all the decisions in MS are marketing oriented instead of from a software archtecture and engineering point of view. Still remember my lecturers keep telling us when designing a system all the modules should be decouple as much as possible.[/b]
if ms would decouple directx from the system, hence not enforcing it on any game dever on the world, they would loose their dominant position of directx compared to opengl. it is simply about not loosing grip of the cash-cows: the game market.

311

Anyone else waiting for Apple to market OS X for Intel separately from their machines? :smiley:
Now wouldn’t that solve all problems?

Except maybe MS wouldn’t like losing total control of the OS market?

Now really if you use your workstation mainly for Maya, Lightwave or XSI what do you need Windows for?
I personally keep hoping MS listens to others and allows for “transparent” installation of proper OpenGL drivers.
A bit like current Java?

I wonder if this is realistic.

312

Talking about module separation and software engineering stuff, let me say it’s academic crap.
Useless in practice and to implement a competetive operating systems, like Windows based on such academic views then we will edn with Linux like very slow OS. This time I cannot help but deffend MS.

OpenGL does not even implement such things. These are helpful in business oriented highlevel applications.

In OS, gaming, CG, APIs there is not such thing called deep hierarchy or software architecturing.

And BTW how can we help OpenGL from MS plans if we cannot protect the copyrighted software from pirates and hackers. Look around the world how such people from specific regions in this world are hacking and cracking others work and technology. We first should stop them doing so then we can talk about changing MS (LEGAL) plan from layering OpenGL. :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

313

Originally posted by Plüss Roland:
[quote]Originally posted by muxec:
To install nVidia drivers under Linux you need to manually edit config files, think about kernel headers and so on. When and if software and driver installations for linux will become as simple as Win we can say that linux is desktop system.
just stumbled across this post and had to say ‘bull****’. pro-linux oriented distros like Gentoo or even LFS do need this editing of config files. common user distros like Mandriva and many others are even simpler than windows in installing those kind of drivers. open package manager, place a check mark next to the driver you want, hit install, restart x-server, there we go. under windows you insert cd-rom, click away tons of DO-NOT-COPY screens, bang your head over what additional crap this installer installs and trying to prevent it, hit reboot, and if lucky it works the first boot and otherwise you are invited to visit the roll-back feature. wow… now which one is easier i ask?[/QUOTE]Khm. You can not install nvidia OpenGL graphic driver as package on most distros as it is not free as in “freedom” so violates the policy of almost all linux distributives. Conclusion: you can not point and click nvidia driver installer for linux.

And BTW how can we help OpenGL from MS plans if we cannot protect the copyrighted software from pirates and hackers. Look around the world how such people from specific regions in this world are hacking and cracking others work and technology. We first should stop them doing so then we can talk about changing MS (LEGAL) plan from layering OpenGL.
a. If you want an unaccomplishable task, than go move some mountains.
b. Microsoft enocouraged software piracy in countries where Windows is absolutely unaffordable to make Windows standard “the only” OS.
c. Pirates and hackers are the strongest competitors of Microsoft. Yes, much stronger than GNU and Apple Mac. Without them Microsoft would be an untimate monopoly and will care about other standarts even less.
d. Again (see my previous post). As copyright law in its curent form is not supported by more than 50% of men it is not democratic at all.

314

@muxec:

Khm. You can not install nvidia OpenGL graphic driver as package on most distros as it is not free as in “freedom” so violates the policy of almost all linux distributives. Conclusion: you can not point and click nvidia driver installer for linux.
is

emerge nvidia-drivers

for you fast enough? ok this is the pro-way, not the easy way. but yes, you can point-click install nvidia. just because it is linux does not mean you can not taint your kernel. hence your statement is rather bs.

@glfreak: you have no idea of software engineering don’t you? modulation, reusability and alike are anything else than academic crap. and linux is many times faster than windows if setup correctly. it’s only beaten by beos beeing even faster than that. furthermore has that ‘moddlarity’ you hate on linux systems brought one of the most vital, stable and usable systems around. windows can only do a small subset of what unix derived systems can simply because it is anything else than developed in an intelligent way.

315

Originally posted by Plüss Roland:
is

emerge nvidia-drivers

for you fast enough?
[/QB]
Please include time spent on emerge manuals and howtos. Thank you.

As for faster OSes many benchmarks show that OpenGL games under linux provide higher FPS.

316

Originally posted by muxec:
[b]

emerge nvidia-drivers

for you fast enough?
[/b]
Please include time spent on emerge manuals and howtos. Thank you.

As for faster OSes many benchmarks show that OpenGL games under linux provide higher FPS.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size=“2” face=“Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif”>that’s why i said it’s the pro-way. the easy way is running the package-manager, placing a check-mark next to the nvidia-driver, hit install, wait a couple of seconds, restart x-server. that’s the mandriva way. no howto and no manuals needed as it has a config manager. all newbie oriented distros have config managers where you do not need howtos or manuals at all.

317

Just some comments from a part of Europe.

Some one have say D3D is better. I want to ask, better when? If you have put a vertex buffer in card and send to reneder, dont mater what api you use, the card will do the job same for all. As for easy of use, OpenGL is very nice and friendly, when D3D is a pain. At last the OpenGL coding sintax and general use are not changed how D3D is. If you code for D3D at almost every new SDK version you need to change something or something more.

May i ask respectable peoples who keep they hands with MS, how do you expect developers will still use DirectX tehnologies in the future, after zillions of api changes? Can i remeber DirectPlay, who today dont exist? and DirectSound who is about to be wiped from SDK? This are the nice surprises coding with DirectX? I agreed, the DirectX team must justify they salary some how in the MS concern, but nobody take care about developers here, they just draw directions, and i most of the cases they abandon them. Hehe…

Some people have say OpenGL is an old api, and not good. The facts that still exist today prove it as a very good api.

Here, the real problem is MS, who is really in trouble this days, and they know that very well, that they try diffent tricks. The moment is crucial. Just some nig houses need to switch to Linux, and MS finish is here. If the balance will be changed, MS will die with very fast, they can promise Vista Bis, nobody will beleve then.

About Vista, the market decisions is clear, they need something new, the problem is that in Vista is nothing new. They can do almost all minor improvements in XP, but they need it becouse they must fight Linux somehow.

As for me, and rest of peoples i know, we all coding for Linux now, and most of the EU seems to begin love Linux and OpenGL.

When most of the game developers will realise they loose money supporting MS tools for nothing good, the MS will loose OS war.

Thanks for reading and escuse my language mispelling and errors.

318

I agree with you.

D3D can be promising in its own platform. But is that platform getting any better? I dopubt it. Especially with the .NET thing and the virtual machine crap (like Java, C#, .etc) invading good old os’s. It is a hype more than a real technology. The main problem is the platform trends not the API’s themselves.

Windows 98 is good. Windows XP is better. Linux is cool. but when we want to address something like OpenGL or even OpenAL they are sciences in their own. DirectX is more an interface rather than an API.

OpenGL rules this is out of question.

DirectX may only rule under its platform.

Can we compare GDI with X Window? No way both are different things and true under their native platforms.

Another thing. Please stop the Wine project for the Linux sake. Promoting Linux should not be achieved by creating crappy tools and emu’s that can run Windows native apps. It should be by proting the source and re-compiling those great applications instead. Otherwise Linux will suck.

Trolltech Qt is a good example for a well designed GUI API, much better than MFC. But it should be a free standard as well, otherwise people with stick to MFC, and never consider porting to Linux.

I’m expecting that OpenGL 2.5 or 2.x will be kick off, with many features that game developers will really love. And this is one reason MS took a pre-caution step to protect their own API from being spared by many developers like EA :smiley:

:stuck_out_tongue:

319

Originally posted by zed:
D/ somehow convince apple to allow their OS to be installed on generic computers, (though one of apples pluses is its limited range of hardware it runs on thus writing drivers is easier, but hardware standards are much better today than they were say 10years ago, ie less conflicts etc)
im pretty sure if apple done this their market share would rise from 3% to 10-20% in a year + ultimatly they would make more profits for apple, im sure a lot of companies will preinstall the apple os on their computers (esp laptops)
the main things stopping this is mr X is a twat + will not admit he was ever wrong, good example check out apple have finally gotten around to releasing a multibutton mouse recently, until now multibutton actions (eg rightclick) were performed on the keyboard, how was that simplier, me no understando
Ok, Apple is unlikely to do that, because their profits come mostly from the hardware sales and not software. Also, on the mouse issue, you could use a multibutton mouse, just the stock mouse that they offered only had one button. I got a 5 button hooked up to my mac, and I’ve had it since way before the Mighty Mouse came out.

320

Originally posted by Apeluier:
OpenGL is a hardware API and should not be a software emulation. We developed a large C++ library based on OpenGL so software emulation would be a huge problem for us. We need the speed !!!
Then you were pretty foolish, I’m sorry to say.
That’s as mad as someone writing a large C++ library based on d3d - the api changes dramatically with each revision, therefore nobody puts d3d code directly inside their application code.
They abstract it.
You haven’t.
Your problem.